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Post by woogie on Apr 21, 2012 17:39:26 GMT -5
Everyone please read these rules, and know them BEFORE you come to a game! Anyone caught in violation of these rules will be removed from the game, and will not be allowed back on the field for a few games.
1. Eye pro will be on at all time!! The only place that you are able to remove them is in the safe zone.
2. Mags will be removed from the rifle when in the safe zone.
3. You will not point any weapon at ANYONE while in the safe zone.
4. When you are hit CALL YOURSELF OUT! This doesn't mean you look around and try and find the person that shot at you. If you are hit, lower your weapon, and call hit, and proceed to the safe zone.
5. When you are hit you will remove yourself from the game... and you will keep your mouth shut. Dead men don't talk, and can not talk to their teammates. This also goes if you have coms.... if you are down, you can not relay any info to your team.
6. You will not physically touch any other player while on the field. Unless it is a specific reason to during the game.... ( IE..... medic rule during a game, or some other scenario )
7. You will not play around any ones vehicle!
We are going to start to use Tony's field, with his permission, and if we can get out on any other fields we will. I just got off the phone with the police chief, and while he didn't see anything wrong with us down there, he was worried about the residents that live down there. So we will no longer be using the South Fargo field.
If you are caught in violation of ANY one of the rules, you will be removed from the field, and not invited back to play. We are playing on a PRIVATE field, and the rules are as such to insure a FAIR game for all those that attend.
We are seeing far to many people, the same people mind you, that are constantly in violation of these basic rules. I am not the only one that has seen people in violation of these rules....there have been a few newer players that have also expressed concern about player not calling hits and being very immature while on the field.
These rules are in place to make sure that everyone has a good time. So please don't be "that guy" and ruin the sport for someone that wants to get into it.
* Talk only about the rules... you have any problems with players, not following them, or anything let a mod know.
Any other rules you would like to see talk about those. Anything else will be removed.
This thread isn't going to be a he said, she said thread. *
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Post by brute71 on Apr 23, 2012 17:40:11 GMT -5
Barrel blockers are also a nice touch, while not deemed necessary accidents happen. So if you have one bring it!
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Post by Rekkon on Apr 24, 2012 9:49:09 GMT -5
We should work to compile a common "core" of rules so everyone knows what to expect when they attend a game hosted by another group. A good place to start is the Minnesota Airsoft Association Safety Manual: dev.mnairsoft.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/MAA-Safety-Manual-2nd-Edition.pdfSome of the bigger questions we should address: What do we allow for eye protection? *Everything needs to be ANSI Z87.1 impact rated. This should be non-negotiable. If your eye-pro cannot withstand a hit, you should not be using it, and we should not be shooting at you. *Most places in Minnesota and Wisconsin require full-seal eye protection, which means no shooting glasses. What do we use for FPS limits? *400 FPS with .20g BBs for non-sniper weapons is pretty standard. The MAA uses 450 FPS, but they moved to that limit only because a lot of Chinese clone guns shoot above 400, and they wanted to allow their use without modification. *Sniper limits vary more. I have seen 500 and 550 most commonly. What do we use for engagement limits? *10 feet for normal (400 FPS) weapons is very common. *Sniper minimums differ and should be tailored to the sniper FPS. I have seen 25, 50 and 100 feet in different rulesets. What constitutes a hit? *This is pretty straightforward except for the matters of gun hits and ricochets. Most rulesets I have seen allow you to ignore both. Do we require barrel blockers? *Again, most MN and WI places do, including both their airsoft associations. These have been standard paintball equipment for a long time. At a minimum, players should be required to remove their magazines, empty their chambers and put their weapons on safe. *Remember, you might be perfectly diligent about weapon safety, but do you trust the new kid next to you whose only firearm experience comes from video games? I cannot tell you how many times I have kept my eye protection on inside the safe zone because I did not trust everyone there to have emptied and cleared their weapon and not pull their triggers. Other things not already posted: *No blind fire. You must be able to see your target with your unaided eye down the length of your weapon in order to fire it. You cannot simply stick your weapon around a corner or over a wall and pull the trigger. *Bang kills. Standards for these vary and can be a substantial source of friction between groups unfamiliar with how each other operate. Generally speaking, bang kills are used when you catch someone “dead to rights” inside the 10 foot minimum engagement distance. It is not used to bust bunker, it is not used to kill someone behind cover, it is not used to wipe out a whole squad. It is a courtesy to someone with no hope of survival to spare them a close range shot. You are expected to accept bang kills as if they were BB strikes. They are not optional, you cannot attempt to “fast draw” the guy who just bang killed you.
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Post by phangos on Apr 24, 2012 11:04:30 GMT -5
Some of the bigger questions we should address: What do we allow for eye protection? It's not that big of a deal for people to buy a 25 dollar pair of full seal paintball goggles. I think it's a good rule to enforce for safety. Who wants to lose an eye?What do we use for FPS limits? I personally think that 400 FPS is sufficient for an AEG, and 500 FPS is a good limit for a BASR. Although I like the thought of 450 for a DMR, but I don't think just because you can buy a gun over 400 out of the box that we should change the rule.What do we use for engagement limits? *10 feet for normal (400 FPS) weapons is very common. *Sniper minimums differ and should be tailored to the sniper FPS. I have seen 25, 50 and 100 feet in different rulesets. I think that a sniper, should have an MED of 25 or 50 feet. As long as they are not hitting the face a 25 MED is sufficient.What constitutes a hit? *This is pretty straightforward except for the matters of gun hits and ricochets. Most rulesets I have seen allow you to ignore both. At the last game I played, I used a BASR and sniped an infantryman that suspected he was outside of my range. His weapon was slung over his stomach, and that is where my bb landed. If I were him, I would have called myself out, due to the placement. Under a circumstance where the gun is raised and somebody shoots it and no part of your body is directly behind it, then it shouldn't count. Thoughts?Do we require barrel blockers? *Again, most MN and WI places do, including both their airsoft associations. These have been standard paintball equipment for a long time. At a minimum, players should be required to remove their magazines, empty their chambers and put their weapons on safe. I agree with the whole of this, however, I dislike the barrel blockers. Perhaps only a barrel blocker would be required for rifles that are being handled. For instance, if I bring three AEGs and two have not been used, they may sit, with no magazine and no source of power, with no barrel blocker on.Other things not already posted: *No blind fire. You must be able to see your target with your unaided eye down the length of your weapon in order to fire it. You cannot simply stick your weapon around a corner or over a wall and pull the trigger. While this is something I dislike, as it takes some realism from the game, I understand this rule AND think it does need to be enforced.*Bang kills. Standards for these vary and can be a substantial source of friction between groups unfamiliar with how each other operate. Generally speaking, bang kills are used when you catch someone “dead to rights” inside the 10 foot minimum engagement distance. It is not used to bust bunker, it is not used to kill someone behind cover, it is not used to wipe out a whole squad. It is a courtesy to someone with no hope of survival to spare them a close range shot. You are expected to accept bang kills as if they were BB strikes. They are not optional, you cannot attempt to “fast draw” the guy who just bang killed you. I honestly think that if a bang kill is called, it should be a mandatory death. The "shooter" is doing a favor to the "victim" and it should be treated as such, not as an opportunity to retaliate.
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Post by Rekkon on Apr 24, 2012 12:19:48 GMT -5
What do we allow for eye protection? It's not that big of a deal for people to buy a 25 dollar pair of full seal paintball goggles. I think it's a good rule to enforce for safety. Who wants to lose an eye? I agree. If you cannot afford good eye protection, you should not be playing the sport. Airsoft is a money sink, and a good pair of goggles helps you enjoy the sport. Ask all the people that skimped and then had to put up with fogging. Hard to have fun when you cannot see. Another point to consider is that there is more than just your personal risk involved when you use shooting glasses (or any sub-par eye wear really). How would you feel if it was your extremely unlucky BB that took out someone’s eye? Waivers are no guarantee against lawsuit, and maybe little Johnny’s parents feels someone needs to pay for their son’s eye. Even if that is not the case, how many other parents are going to let their kids play the sport if some other kid lost an eye over it? What do we use for FPS limits? I personally think that 400 FPS is sufficient for an AEG, and 500 FPS is a good limit for a BASR. Although I like the thought of 450 for a DMR, but I don't think just because you can buy a gun over 400 out of the box that we should change the rule.I lean toward 550 for snipers myself. Of course, this is predicated on the assumption that player using it can handle it in a mature fashion. The player needs to know when not to take a high power shot. Getting to use a high power sniper rifle is something for which you should have to demonstrate the maturity. What do we use for engagement limits? *10 feet for normal (400 FPS) weapons is very common. *Sniper minimums differ and should be tailored to the sniper FPS. I have seen 25, 50 and 100 feet in different rulesets. I think that a sniper, should have an MED of 25 or 50 feet. As long as they are not hitting the face a 25 MED is sufficient.I ran the energy numbers for this issue a while back. Here is a link: www.ostfrontairsoft.com/cgi-bin/ikonboard/ikonboard.cgi?act=ST;f=3;t=38Very roughly speaking, each additional 50 FPS you allow should correlate to around 25 feet of minimum engagement distance if you use energy as your metric. Of course this only factors in the impact of a single hit. Many people will tell you they would rather take one high-energy BB than a spray of full auto at lower speeds. Pain is rather more difficult to quantify objectively. What constitutes a hit? *This is pretty straightforward except for the matters of gun hits and ricochets. Most rulesets I have seen allow you to ignore both. At the last game I played, I used a BASR and sniped an infantryman that suspected he was outside of my range. His weapon was slung over his stomach, and that is where my bb landed. If I were him, I would have called myself out, due to the placement. Under a circumstance where the gun is raised and somebody shoots it and no part of your body is directly behind it, then it shouldn't count. Thoughts?Agreed. I was being brief. Most rulesets that let you ignore weapon hits refer explicitly to weapon-in-hand hits. A hit on a slung or holstered weapon still eliminates you. I have also seen rules where weapon hits do not kill the player, but they disable that weapon until the player returns to base or respawn to get a “new” one. Do we require barrel blockers? *Again, most MN and WI places do, including both their airsoft associations. These have been standard paintball equipment for a long time. At a minimum, players should be required to remove their magazines, empty their chambers and put their weapons on safe. I agree with the whole of this, however, I dislike the barrel blockers. Perhaps only a barrel blocker would be required for rifles that are being handled. For instance, if I bring three AEGs and two have not been used, they may sit, with no magazine and no source of power, with no barrel blocker on.I cannot say I like messing with them either, but barrel blockers serve two important functions. Obviously they prevent BBs from leaving the barrel, but they are also visible. Selector switches and BBs in the chamber are not readily visible. Even if that noob has a BB in the chamber and the selector on full auto, a barrel blocker prevents a dangerous situation. And this is not directed just at young people either. The last time I played at The Facility I was shot virtually point blank in the safe zone by an older player. Not only did he pull the trigger, he did so with a loaded weapon and without bothering to check where it was pointed. I believe the MAA standard is that weapons being handled need barrel blockers. If they are in a case, they are fine. Batteries out help, but that is another thing that is not readily visible, and of course GBBs and springers require not batteries. No way to tell if they are cocked and/or gassed. Other things not already posted: *No blind fire. You must be able to see your target with your unaided eye down the length of your weapon in order to fire it. You cannot simply stick your weapon around a corner or over a wall and pull the trigger. While this is something I dislike, as it takes some realism from the game, I understand this rule AND think it does need to be enforced.It might detract slightly from the game, but someone getting lit up at 2 feet will detract significantly more from their game/day. Ultimately it is a safety thing, and we have to accept some loss of realism for safety’s sake or no one would play the game.
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Post by woogie on Apr 24, 2012 15:18:45 GMT -5
FPS for snipers if 550 the MED is 75' no questions, and they are always required to have a secondary on them.
When FPS is 500 MED is 50', and the same with the side arm.
We just need to figure out which one will work for everyone. And of course a sniper rifle is a rifle that can only fire in single shot only.
Glad you posted about blind fire Rekkon, because a few of us have been shot from some one blind firing. And the only thing this is going to to is make people mad, and start a fist fight there on the field. Neither of which we want to see on the field, so you need to be able to look down your sights before you fire. There are plenty of ways to shoot around a corner while still being able to look down your sights.
Barrel blockers should be on the main weapon that is being used. If you have multiple rifles the one that is being used needs a blocker on it. If you go to your car and remove the battery, then you can remove the barrel blocker. If you go to use another rifle, before you install battery install the blocker, and then install battery. Just one more thing to keep people from getting shot in a safe area with no eye pro on. ( You can get a barrel blocker for cheap at just about any store )
The weapons hit is kind of a "touchy" subject to many. If you have your barrel around a tree and the barrel gets hit.....are you out? I personally would say no, but if that is the only thing visible to the shooter that is what he will shoot at. I know like you tac vest, ghillie suit, or anything you are wearing counts as a kill... but weapons is going to get into a grey area. So what are the opinions of people about that?
Eye pro...
18 and under you are required to have full seal no if ands or butts. 18 over you are an adult and take responsibility for your actions.
Nothing is in "stone" but just thoughts and ideas.
So lets hear what you guys think.
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Post by brute71 on Apr 24, 2012 21:11:08 GMT -5
For snipers, 550 fps is fine for me with a 75'~100' MED (due to most of us using BB weights over .3 g msed.bbbastard.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=53&Itemid=57) and a mandatory secondary that fires under 400 fps. Should be limited to BASR's or AEGs that are PHYSICALLY limited to semi auto only that would require you to dismantle the gun to change. On my DMR I have a small screw that only allows the selector plate to go into the semi position and not the automatic position. I would have to remove the gearbox from the gun to change that. On my SR-25 all I need is a selector switch that doesnt have a cutout to allow the semi automatic stop on the body to function. Changing selector switches requires removal of the gearbox. I would also venture to say that AEG's in such manner should be limited to those that can withhold themselves from spamming the trigger. I will post up a guide to show people how to do the semi only mod when I get the chance. Blind fire = no no Barrel blockers would be a nice thing to require, they are cheap and something i'm used to for paintball. All other guns should be cased up when not in use. If the weapon is in the ready position and not slung or at rest I dont thing a weapon hit should count. Eye pro, my pet peeve. Under 18 I think full face mask should be required or at least full seal goggles with something covering the lower face (ANSI rated lenses a must). Over 18 I would like to see full seal for everyone simply because there's less of a chance of goggles falling off than shooting glasses or the like. I still prefer my paintball masks because I dont feel like losing a tooth or getting a BB to the back of the throat. Eye protection is the one thing you should not skimp on. List of masks/goggles I would like to point out: JT ProFlex*: www.ansgear.com/Jt_ProFlex_Thermal_Paintball_Mask_Black_p/jtproflexblack.htm-Mask breaths almost as well as having just goggles on and doesnt fog easily Proto Switch EL/FS*: www.ansgear.com/Proto_EL_Switch_Paintball_Mask_Black_p/protomskelblack.htm www.ansgear.com/Proto_Switch_FS_Thermal_Paintball_Mask_Black_p/protofsmaskblack.htm-Masks breathe and hear very well for the price and are fairly comfey, the FS has a rubber lower portion to it so mask hits wont be as loud/abrupt FlakJag goggles: www.evike.com/product_info.php?cPath=30_149&products_id=29160-I have heard great things about these goggles, they breathe well through the goggle itself and includes a second lense ESS NVG Profile goggles*: www.esseyepro.com/Profile-NVG_1_detail.html-Very low profile, lenses are easy to find and have fairly good flow through them. Mil issue so you know they will stand up to some abuse. Best found on ebay for better price Dye i4's*: www.ansgear.com/Dye_Invision_Goggle_I4_Pro_Mask_DyeCam_p/dyei4goggledyecam.htm-One of my favorite paintball masks to use, they breathe well and you can hear out of them well and are very difficult to get to fog. Also offers a lower cheek weld than other masks so you can still use most sights and optics with them. Proto Pro Axis*: www.ansgear.com/Proto_Axis_Pro_Mask_Black_p/protoaxispromaskblack.htm-My favorite paintball mask period currently (Empire E-Flex's might be a contender though), breath excellent, resist fogging, and you can hear great out of them. Not as low of a cheek weld as the i4's but they will still be in my gear bag for airsoft, and on my face for paintball. * denotes masks/goggles I have personally used and/or own currently. The proto switch EL would be my personal new budget option over any others in that $30 and under range.
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